Wednesday, August 3, 2011

Thiviers : Dordogne (Périgord)

La région de Thiviers, autour de l'Isle, constituait la porte d'entrée dans l'ancien Périgord, héritier de la cité celte des Petrocores. En effet, l'extrême nord du département moderne de la Dordogne était une dépendance de l'ancien Limousin. La toponymie proprement gauloise est abondante dans la région notamment via des toponymes en -ialo (Nantheuil, Excideuil, ...).

The area of Thiviers, more or less centred on the Isle river, constituted the entrance into former Périgord, heir to the Celtic civitas of the Petrocores as northern villages of modern-day département de la Dordogne used to belong to Limousin. Gaulish placenames are somehow rather abudant, more particularly toponyms in -ialo (Nantheuil, Excideuil, ...).

  • Echantillon représentatif / Sample :

Taille réelle / Full Scale

  • Analyse anthropologique sommaire / Brief anthropological analysis :

- Type 1 : Complexion intermédiaire (yeux noirs, cheveux châtains, ...), leptomorphique, face large, long nez (parfois implanté haut et convexe), yeux rapprochés, mâchoire très large et bombé, menton pointu
~ Nordo-Méditerranéen dinaromorphique

Intermediate complexion (dark eyes, chestnut hair, ...), leptomorphic, large face, long (and sometimes high-rooted convex) nose, close-set eyes, very large and bombed jaw, pointy chin

~ Dinaromorphic Nordo-Mediterranean

Ces individus ne présentent pas de spécificités particulières : il s'agit d'un type attendu dans cette région de France, même s'il faut noter certains traits secondaires qui ancrent ces personnes dans les phénotypes de Guyenne et du Limousin méridional comme une mâchoire assez large, des nez moins imposants, ...

Il faut remarquer que contrairement aux régions plus méridionales du Périgord, ce type est ici nettement dominant. On trouve également des individus moins typés, à la complexion plus claire.

These individuals don't show peculiar specificities : this is an expected type in this area of France, even though some secondary features hint to the fact that we are in Guienne/South Limousin such as a larger jaw than usual or a less protruding nose.

Let's add that contrary to what was noticed in South Périgord, such individuals are in clear majority here. One can encounter less typical individuals of lighter complexion.

- Type 2 :
Complexion intermédiaire (yeux noirs, cheveux châtains, ...), brachymorphique, tête ronde ou carrée, petit nez épaté, yeux étroits et éloignés, traits généraux bouffis (oreilles, lèvres, ...)
~ Alpin

Intermediate complexion (dark eyes, chestnut hair, ...), brachymorphic, rounded or square-box head, little puffy nose, narrow and wide-set eyes, puffy general features (ears, lips, ...)
~ Alpinoid

Ce type - qui semble essentiellement féminin - est assez caractéristique du Périgord et du Limousin, nous l'avons rencontré à de nombreuses reprises. Voici une autre série, de complexion plus foncée, plus "guyennaise".

This type - nearly exclusively female - is quite typical from Périgord and Limousin, we have already identified it elsewhere in the area. Here's another series, a tad darker and more "Guyennais-looking".

  • Morphotypes finaux / Final morphotypes :


  1. I think it's a very interesting sample, although it'd need to be put in context. There are many France-only faces (and as you say even specific of certain regions like Perigord/Guyenne - but I can only follow you in this detail).

    But when you look for external affinities, I'd say that they tend more towards Catalunya than to any other place (this would be quite normal as the origins of Catalans should be largely over there, be it a Paleolithic, Epipaleolithic or even Medieval). There are a few faces with British tendencies as well but not one I can say "looks Brit" without doubt. Same for the Basque tendencies, which also exist.

    I'm every day more persuaded that Perigord is the origin of much of European ancestry, but of course I still have many doubts in the fine detail.

  2. As I have some time this month, I'll try to complete my samples in Périgord and adjacent areas.

    It is somehow rather logical to imagine that people inhabiting Périgord in Paleolithic times contributed for a great deal to the origin of modern-day Europeans. Let's add there are no events in Périgourdine history which would make us believe modern-day Périgourdins would strikingly differ from their ancestors. Consequently, they're interesting.

    I also believe the nearby - yet already distinct in Late Paleolithic as far as artefacts or monuments such as dolmens are concerned - "Vasconic" region was not the source for European genetics but a rather peripheral area which somehow "failed" and entered into relative isolation up to Roman times actually (Celtic infiltrations were not that intense).

    As for the peopling of Britain I suppose it is fair to state that it was made from modern-day NW France. Should we speculate that NW France was peopled from Périgord ? And do you believe Catalonia was peopled from Périgord and that "Cantabrians" were of no importance in that peopling ?

  3. I can only reply with some certainty to these questions:

    1) "do you believe Catalonia was peopled from Périgord and that "Cantabrians" were of no importance in that peopling?"

    It does not have a single origin but the second Epipaleolithic wave (Tardenoisian/Sauveterrian/geometric) is described in some of my books as a de facto transplant "from France". Where exactly in France, I can't say but I got the impression that Guyenne, possibly Perigord.

    However there are earlier waves from the "French" part of the FC region. Maybe more to Languedoc or Provence of Upper Gascony (unsure). But I'm quite sure that there is no particular Catalonia-Cantabria direct connection. Of course there's also a "Mediterranean" component which is from Italy or even further East (Neolithic).

    2) As for the peopling of Britain I suppose it is fair to state that it was made from modern-day NW France.

    Indeed if we attend to Neolithic. It seems that Brittany/High Normandy were source for the colonization of the East (Cornwall, Devon, Wales and up to Scotland) and that Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Danubian) was source for the colonization of most of England.

    But it's harder (to me at least) to pinpoint earlier (Epipaleolithic) waves, which must have existed and cannot have been totally erased. Parts of NE England and coastal Scotland were surely colonized from the Nordic areas of mainland Europe (via Doggerland surely), in cultural (and genetic) contexts proper of the North Sea, but the South and West probably have a more southernly origin.

    One issue is that NW France has a weak Paleolithic colonization (dry steppe: apparently not the best ecosystem) so there are two possible Magdalenian sources which may have contributed to Epipaleolithic Britain: Guyenne and Belgium. There was little population in between in the Ice Age.

  4. Because of haplogroups shared between Gascony and Catalonia (for instance R1b1b2a1a2c : 22% amongst Catalan people), I would have theoricized that a local central Pyrenean influx would have been essential for the peopling of Catalonia. Still we lack data about Périgord : maybe such haplogroups are found in the area, I cannot say. Autochtonous Périgourdin people are dying out, it's now or never.

  5. Dying off? It's not like there is any big city there that attracts people from elsewhere... why do you say that?

    About Y-DNA, yes, maybe (there's a clear Catalan-Gascon connection). But what do we know of the Y-DNA of Perigord?

  6. I say that as this is what's happening in the French countryside with locals fleeing for Paris and other towns and farms being converted into secondary residences. You just have to have a look at a telephone directory : less and less local surnames. The last "peasants" are single, their sell their lands to build housing estates.

    That's not a tragedy per se as newcomers are taking the place left by those who left : in a word, the area is not in danger of being a no man's land. Yet when it comes to test autochtonous people for scientific reasons, we'd better hurry as in 20 years' time, it'll just be impossible to find people fully autochtonous to Périgord.

    As for Y-DNA in Périgord, I totally agree with you : we know nothing and that's quite curious that not a single study has ever tackled that issue.

  7. C'est super interessant! De plus, je dirais que mon apparence propre est plutot semblable aux hommes de Perigord (etrangement, mes ancetres directs sont venu de la quand ils sont venu s'etablir en Nouvelle-France)! Bien sure, il y a eux plusieurs 'looks' parmis mes ancetres, mais je reconnais certain trais parmis ces 'nordo-mediterranid/dinaroid' en moi! J'ai ete "classifier" par des sources que je considere confiable comme etant un 'atlantid/nordo-med avec des influences dinaroid'.

    En tout cas, merci pour l'info!!! C'est super!


J'ai choisi de laisser les commentaires ouverts. Cependant vous perdrez votre temps à me sermonner et à me traiter de fasciste (ce que je ne suis vraiment pas) : je vous prie de lire mon introduction qui saura vous rassurer quant à mes intentions. Dans l'amateurisme le plus complet, je n'agis que dans un but de connaissance. Je comprendrai aisément que vous ne partagiez pas mon intérêt pour l'histoire du peuplement du monde, abstenez-vous de vous donner facilement bonne conscience sur le dos d'un travail qui se veut avant tout documentaire et humble.

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